Ctek in vehicle to Jayco power supply

Submitted: Wednesday, Jul 03, 2024 at 13:06
ThreadID: 147956 Views:1567 Replies:5 FollowUps:28
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Purchased a Jayco with in built dc/dc charger
Have a fourby with a Ctek 250 powering a second battery/fridge
It has been suggested to me to run the power cable directly from the ctek to rear of vehicle to power the caravan. Search as i may i cannot find any one who has done this
If it works it is a simple and cheap fix, otherwise i am up for $450 to run a cable from the battery via a relay to rear of vehicle
I would imagine going from dc/dc (vehicle) to dc/dc (caravan) does not present a problem and alleviates having to put in a relay?
Secondly, if this is permitted, can i hook up a solar panel to the vehicle dc/dc and charge both van and vehicle
Have raised the alternator out put to 14.4 amps
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Reply By: RMD - Wednesday, Jul 03, 2024 at 13:42

Wednesday, Jul 03, 2024 at 13:42
Roger. Does the van have a Jayo fitted charger unit or is it a normal dcdc unit,? If inside a Jayco unit, most likely it will be operational from an ANDERSON supply via a direct cable. How old the van is will determine what to do, but NO you wouldn't dc to dc. Using good chassis Connections AND One heavy wire/cable to anderson won't cost $450 even with relay switching it as required.
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Reply By: Allan B (Sunshine Coast) - Wednesday, Jul 03, 2024 at 18:44

Wednesday, Jul 03, 2024 at 18:44
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Hi Roger, certainly you can connect to the Jayco by running a cable from the Ctek to the rear of the vehicle but DO NOT connect it to the output of the Ctek. To do that would place more load on the Ctek and it is of no advantage. You can connect to the cable that presently feeds the Ctek, i.e. the input of the Ctek, but only if the size of that cable is adequate to feed both batteries. A much better way is to run a new cable from the engine battery (alternator) to an Anderson plug at the tow bar. This would not require an isolating relay as the dc-dc charger in the van acts as an isolator. Cutting corners usually results in unsatisfactory results.
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Follow Up By: Allan B (Sunshine Coast) - Wednesday, Jul 03, 2024 at 18:50

Wednesday, Jul 03, 2024 at 18:50
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P.S. it gets very tricky to connect a solar panel to both vehicle and van batteries. Best to put a panel on each car and van independently.
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Follow Up By: RMD - Wednesday, Jul 03, 2024 at 19:25

Wednesday, Jul 03, 2024 at 19:25
Allan B
I asked what his charger in the van actually does. My Jayco van WILL, if the van battery is charged, it will also deliver energy from it's solar input via the van charger to charge the vehicle start battery via an Anderson cable if it is below a threshold value. I haven't tried it but it says it will do it Further information from Roger will allow people.to respond according to what he has already. So far we don't know the full story.
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Follow Up By: Member - peter g28 - Thursday, Jul 04, 2024 at 18:20

Thursday, Jul 04, 2024 at 18:20
Very correct.
Pay the $400+
Get a seperate cable run from cranking battery to the rear of your vehicle to an Anderson plug, this will connect to your van and the Van's dcdc charger will do the work.
The existing cable will go to your vehicle dcdc charger to charge a second battery and will be all that it will do..nothing more.
A good reason why is that with your proposal you will have two dcdc chargers on the same cable line and this just complicates the issue between the dcdc charges with the van battery or the vehicle second battery not receiving the proper charge...they will be literally fighting each other for current.
It is best having two seperate individual sandboxed charging circuits and so this will make fault finding easier to remedy if there is a problem with charging the vehicle second battery or charging the van battery.

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Follow Up By: Allan B (Sunshine Coast) - Thursday, Jul 04, 2024 at 19:08

Thursday, Jul 04, 2024 at 19:08
There is some risk in having two (or more) dc-dc chargers operating from the same battery/alternator IF the chargers are operating in the ‘voltage sensing’ mode where the charger is looking at the supply voltage in order to determine if the alternator is running.

What happens is that one charger will detect the elevated voltage and start the charge cycle. As it does, the current load drops the battery terminal voltage to a value below the start threshold of the second charger so it fails to start. This situation prevails until the battery load falls enough to allow the terminal voltage to rise above the start threshold whereupon the second charger will start. Both chargers will then continue normally.
The remedy to this situation is to employ chargers that rely upon an ignition signal to start rather than by voltage sensing.
I always prefer ignition sensing for all installations, it is more certain in operation.

By the way, what the hell is a “sandboxed”. charging circuit?
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Follow Up By: Member - peter g28 - Thursday, Jul 04, 2024 at 19:59

Thursday, Jul 04, 2024 at 19:59
By the way, what the hell is a “sandboxed”. charging circuit?

It's just my term I use to mean, to be completely seperate and resistant to external influences / affects /responses...it is a term that has been used in computing writing especially with mobile App's.


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Follow Up By: Allan B (Sunshine Coast) - Thursday, Jul 04, 2024 at 20:09

Thursday, Jul 04, 2024 at 20:09
.
Ah, so it makes the second order influence more immune to reactions from the quantum effect of the primary interface?
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Follow Up By: Nomadic Navara - Saturday, Jul 06, 2024 at 09:19

Saturday, Jul 06, 2024 at 09:19
Quote "It's just my term I use to mean, . . ."

That's one of the big problems in forums, people invent their own terms or borrow inappropriate terms from other areas. This sends others down sidetracks and the threads get off track. If you do not know the correct terminology for the subject you are dabbling in, then please spell out what you mean.

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Reply By: DaveO*ST-R - Thursday, Jul 04, 2024 at 08:12

Thursday, Jul 04, 2024 at 08:12
Howl me down if the naysayers must, but the way I have my setup is working just fine for me.

In the back of my Landcruiser, I have a 100ah lithium battery that predominantly runs the fridge and lighting only. I have a 20A DC-DC connected to that from the vehicle batteries. This gives me a full charge to the 100ah in the back and has been working flawlessly for the last 3 years.

From there (that being the terminals of the battery, NOT from the DC-DC terminals as what you seem to indicate in your OP) I have run cables to an Anderson plug at the rear of the vehicle. That feeds/connects to the caravan where I have a single 120ah Lithium, charged by a 40A DC-DC. Again, this setup has worked perfectly for me for the last 3 years. I regularly check the battery monitors in the car and caravan to see voltage/amps in/out as well as battery % for the lithiums, so I can tell if the setup is working efficiently.

I also run a separate AndersonPlug/cable from the vehicle batteries to the caravan solely to power the 3 way fridge on 12V whilst travelling. If you are interested Roger, the cost of that for cables, "generic" Anderson plugs (about $2 each compared to about$10 for genuine) fuses and lugs etc would have cost me around $100 or thereabouts - with me doing the work. I don't have a relay on this circuit, rather I have a "Fridge Switch" at the back of the caravan fridge to cut the power when stopped - about $50.

The main requirement when I set this up was to run big enough cable which in my case was 6B&S. With the car running, I get a full 20A to the battery in the rear of the vehicle and close to the 40A in the caravan, dependent on the state of charges at the time.

I'll make a disclaimer - I am no auto electrician, but I think I have a reasonable idea of how to do things, and for many years, my setup has worked perfectly for me. I make sure I run cables that will easily do the job and I fuse the daylights out of everything !!

Hope this helps?

Dave
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Follow Up By: Allan B (Sunshine Coast) - Thursday, Jul 04, 2024 at 09:32

Thursday, Jul 04, 2024 at 09:32
Dave, I think you need to clarify something.
You say……” From there (that being the terminals of the battery, NOT from the DC-DC terminals”……. Which battery are you referring to? The engine battery or the 100Ah lithium in the back of the Cruiser?
From your expressions of battery charge currents I would expect that the cable running to the Anderson plug is sourced directly from the engine battery (hence the alternator) not to the 100Ah lithium battery. If so, that is what I have recommended in my post above and is a good design.
So is that how your system is constructed?
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Follow Up By: Loddo48 - Thursday, Jul 04, 2024 at 09:32

Thursday, Jul 04, 2024 at 09:32
I would like to know how a 20 dc to dc charger can charge a battery that has a 40 amp dc to dc charger drawing 40 amps connected to it, this defies all logics.
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Follow Up By: Allan B (Sunshine Coast) - Thursday, Jul 04, 2024 at 09:40

Thursday, Jul 04, 2024 at 09:40
I agree Loddo, that being the crux of my question above.
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Follow Up By: DaveO*ST-R - Thursday, Jul 04, 2024 at 11:06

Thursday, Jul 04, 2024 at 11:06
OK, I have cable from one of the two linked engine batteries (LC200 earlier models have 2 cranking batteries). That cable goes to the 20A DC-DC input which then charges the 100ah lithium in the back of the vehicle. Full stop.

I then have cables from the positive and negative terminals (negative via shunt) of the 100ah Lithium battery running to the back of the vehicle - as far as I can see and am concerned, totally separate from the DC-DC in the back of the vehicle.

So all I am doing now is obtaining power from the 100ah Lithium in the back of the vehicle instead of the engine bay. That power source goes to the Anderson plug at the back of the vehicle and then into the 40A DC-DC in the caravan. Call it cutting corners or whatever, I did it this way to avoid having another run of cable from the engine bay.

Right, wrong or otherwise not being the accepted way of doing things, this works for me - very effectively.

I hope I have explained that OK - I will bow out and shut up.

Cheers,

Dave

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Follow Up By: Allan B (Sunshine Coast) - Thursday, Jul 04, 2024 at 11:18

Thursday, Jul 04, 2024 at 11:18
Thanks Dave, you have clarified how your system is connected.
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Follow Up By: Loddo48 - Thursday, Jul 04, 2024 at 11:57

Thursday, Jul 04, 2024 at 11:57
If I read the reply from the poster as being how the supply to the 40amp dc to dc is connected and he accepts that it is working for him all good and well but the lithium has still only been charged via the 20-amp charger. My problem with that set up is you can't take 40 + amps out of a battery that is been charged via a 20-amp charger something has to give sooner or later. The 40-amp charger is going to draw power from the car lithium until the 40-amp charger hits it cutoff voltage which is around the 12.8 volts as lithium will hold the voltage up and still run the 40-amp charger even though the car is off.
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Follow Up By: Nomadic Navara - Thursday, Jul 04, 2024 at 12:26

Thursday, Jul 04, 2024 at 12:26
"I would like to know how a 20 dc to dc charger can charge a battery that has a 40 amp dc to dc charger drawing 40 amps connected to it, this defies all logics."

Simple, the Ctek will provide nearly half the current to drive the DC-DC charger in the van. The rest of the current is drawn from the tugs auxiliary battery. This will discharge the auxiliary battery, and he will have to keep driving the vehicle to recharge the aux battery or that battery will be left in a discharged partially discharged state at the end of his trip. He is flogging his aux battery unnecessarily. (I would have increased the size of the lead to the Ctek and tapped into that line to supply the van charging.)

If he stops and camps overnight without disconnect the charging lead to the van, he will be effectively be drawing his house power from the tugs auxiliary battery because the house DC-DC charger will be supplying his house load and drawing the required power from the tugs battery.
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Follow Up By: Allan B (Sunshine Coast) - Thursday, Jul 04, 2024 at 14:09

Thursday, Jul 04, 2024 at 14:09
Well, the van charger can dump 40A into its battery drawing 20A from the car battery plus another 20A from its charger. This lasts for a time until the van battery is fully charged and current drops to near zero. Then the 20A charger in the car is left to charge its battery for about twice the time. A weird system to say the least although in the owner’s view “it works just fine”.
However, with his aggressive nature, I’m not going to challenge him or argue its illogical design. He would just discredit me as a “naysayer”.
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Follow Up By: Loddo48 - Thursday, Jul 04, 2024 at 14:28

Thursday, Jul 04, 2024 at 14:28
I am with you Allan in regards as to how he has it all connected but it is definitely not ideal as to the way it is done any one with some electrical knowledge would not do it that way as well, I guess but any way each to their own way of doing things.
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Follow Up By: Member - peter g28 - Thursday, Jul 04, 2024 at 18:56

Thursday, Jul 04, 2024 at 18:56
The way I see it..
There is a 20A dcdc charger for the 100Ahr lithium in the cruiser.
There is a 40A dcdc charger in the van for a 120Ahr lithium.
That van dcdc 40A charger is receiving voltage from that connection with the second battery in the cruiser..
So..the van's 40A dcdc charger will be drawing more charge out of the cruisers 100A second battery than the 20A dcdc charger could replace it...
Meaning that cruiser's 100A lithium second battery and its' 20A dcdc charger are working very hard to keep the van's 120A lithium fully charged.
The risk being, if the Cruiser's 20A dcdc charger starts to play up, that cruiser's second battery is going to be depleted quite quickly if the 40A van charger is in bulk charge mode with the van and cruiser still connected when parked up.






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Follow Up By: RMD - Thursday, Jul 04, 2024 at 19:37

Thursday, Jul 04, 2024 at 19:37
Besides having the dcdc running flat out all the time until large batteries are charged , to draw through the aux seems a bit strange for sure. Maybe they do both get charged eventually but very oddly. The ONLY ADVANTAGE Davo is achieving by having this pass through system is he ISN'T demanding huge current for a long period which would cook his alternator.
Wouldn't Davo be far better to have the 40amp dcdc to deliver to the aux battery and the 20 amp dc DC in the van? BUT THE BATTERY AMPERE ACCEPTANCE RATING IS FRACK TO BUNT THEN!
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Follow Up By: Allan B (Sunshine Coast) - Sunday, Jul 07, 2024 at 14:20

Sunday, Jul 07, 2024 at 14:20
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DaveO, you say…….. "as far as I can see and am concerned, totally separate from the DC-DC in the back of the vehicle." ……. But it is NOT "totally separate from the DC-DC". All energy going down that cable is derived via the 20A charger, either directly or having gone through the battery.
The way you say it is connected, the maximum total charge rate is 20A as it all has to go through the 20A dc-dc charger in the vehicle. All you need to do is move the feed that goes to the Anderson at the back of the vehicle from the battery terminals and connect it effectively to the INPUT terminals of the 20A car charger where it will now be fed directly from the alternator. In that way both chargers will be fed directly from the alternator for a total charging rate of 60A.
Unless of course 60A will embarrass the alternator, which I doubt. If so, leave it as presently wired and simply swap the chargers over to achieve a 30A total charge rate which would be a little better.

I am surprised that the present system as he describes is capable of maintaining the loads at all times .
UNLESS of COURSE, DaveO is confused about his connections and already has it as I just proposed.
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Follow Up By: Allan B (Sunshine Coast) - Sunday, Jul 07, 2024 at 14:29

Sunday, Jul 07, 2024 at 14:29
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That 'Thumbs-Up' was fast.……..Bob, are you stuck inside on a cold wet day too?
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Follow Up By: Bob Y. - Qld - Sunday, Jul 07, 2024 at 14:33

Sunday, Jul 07, 2024 at 14:33
Ha ha, no Allan. It’s a cool, dry day out here. Just allowing the midday meal to digest, before more tasks.

Regards,
Bob
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Follow Up By: Allan B (Sunshine Coast) - Sunday, Jul 07, 2024 at 14:39

Sunday, Jul 07, 2024 at 14:39
.
Ahh yes, I think I remember them…… "Dry days". Yes wonderful.
Just got back from a week on Moreton Island. Spent most of it inside! But it was nice when the sun did come out.
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Reply By: Sand Man (SA) - Thursday, Jul 04, 2024 at 09:20

Thursday, Jul 04, 2024 at 09:20
Roger,

I run 2 Ctek DC chargers.
One is connected to my secondary battery in the rear of my vehicle and the second is installed in the van.

I simply use an 8 B&S size Y patch lead to split the circuits.

The cable from the alternator is terminated with an Anderson connector. The Y patch lead is connected to this and the other two legs split into two separate circuits.
One provides connection to the vehicle's on-board Ctek DC charger and the other leg supplies the circuit to the caravan which feeds the Van's on-board Ctek DC charger.

As each circuit has a maximum current draw of 20 amps (determined by each charger) the feed from the alternator (also 8 B&S cable) can support both circuits.

As far as solar input is concerned, I have a 200 watt fixed panel on the van to keep its battery charged when off-grid and a second 200 watt portable panel to maintain charge on the vehicle's secondary battery.

Works extremely well for me and if I need to, the portable solar panel can also be connected to the solar input of the van's charger to further boost the charge going into the van battery.

Cheers,
Bill
Bill


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Reply By: Roger B10 - Thursday, Jul 04, 2024 at 16:56

Thursday, Jul 04, 2024 at 16:56
Guy's thanks very much for your responses
Decided to go as follows if it meets your approval, working on the kiss principle
By doing this i hope to solve a few other problems such as space around the starter battery etc
6 B&S cabling, 50 amp circuit breaker at the battery and a straight run to the rear anderson plug
Have read that if you have a dc/dc (projecta PM335J) in the caravan you do not require any form of fusing or relay from the battery/alternator, not sure if this is correct
Noticed i have a 120 amp circuit breaker to the Ctek? when it only requires a 30 amp fuse!
Hope this was not the reason my Kings fridge packed it in
Another query, and checked my wiring diagram for Ctek, it only requires a 8 B&S cable, so if i had run a 6 B&S cable from the Ctek would this have not created a bottle neck?
Learning on the job :)
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Follow Up By: RMD - Thursday, Jul 04, 2024 at 21:59

Thursday, Jul 04, 2024 at 21:59
Roger.
You do need some sort of fuse near the source battery as the fuse, IF EVER NEEDED, should blow/fuse so as to protect the cable as it passes through the vehicle. so a vehicle fire is not initiated by shorting etc. A 120 amp fuse certainly isn't going to protect a greater than normal drain of a fridge or Ctek. Both should have it's own internal fuse rated a little above normal current flow or a fuse before the Ctek DCDC. Engel draws say 4 amp or less, fuse is 10amp but not huge. Ctek fuse is inside on their battery chargers, not sure on DC DC, and often has a small plastic 10mm dia reddish brown two pins device soldered to the board. These are much more difficult to replace, but if ever tested as OPEN circuit the unit usually has a fault to cause it. Ctek wipe all ID's off their internal chips so most times they become a throw away. Always good to have a backup charger of some type for emergencies.
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Follow Up By: Nomadic Navara - Saturday, Jul 06, 2024 at 09:39

Saturday, Jul 06, 2024 at 09:39
Quote "Have read that if you have a dc/dc (projecta PM335J) in the caravan you do not require any form of fusing or relay from the battery/alternator, not sure if this is correct"

The only place you need a fuse is in a cable that is connected to a source of power that is capable of supplying sufficient current to overheat the cable if it develops a short circuit. That fuse (or circuit breaker) should be mounted as close to the power source as possible. Fuses do not protect electronic equipment (transistors blow much quicker than a fuse.) Fuses are only any good for protecting cables and preventing fires that will damage your vehicle or other things around the cable.

You commonly see fuses in places like the input to absorption fridges, these are just another source of potential problems. No fuses are required in cabling from solar panels if you are using heavy enough cable to minimise voltage drop, solar panels are not capable of generating enough current to damage cable under short circuit conditions.
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Follow Up By: tonysmc - Saturday, Jul 06, 2024 at 10:37

Saturday, Jul 06, 2024 at 10:37
Hi Nomadic Navara, About the statement “No fuses are required in cabling from solar panels” I’ve seen a few videos about the recent legislation changes of battery storage in caravans. In those videos they mention that legislation also says that Solar panels “must” be fused and without them, it may void your insurance. One statement I found a little confusing was, the new regulations apply to all installations with a 240v inlet and have some sort of 240v system wire permanently, so does this mean that if you have no 240v at all, it does not apply? I will say, I never take things on youtube & forums as gospel but may make me look into something more if it applies to me.
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Follow Up By: Allan B (Sunshine Coast) - Saturday, Jul 06, 2024 at 12:00

Saturday, Jul 06, 2024 at 12:00
Hi Tony,
AS/NZS 3001 applies specifically to “Connectible” vehicles. So if your RV has NO connectibillity to external 240V source then the Standard and associated regulation does not apply.
Other regulations may apply to such things as inverters and generators but I know of none applying to solar panels or wiring on RV’s.
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Allan

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Follow Up By: Allan B (Sunshine Coast) - Sunday, Jul 07, 2024 at 10:40

Sunday, Jul 07, 2024 at 10:40
.
As for the question of fuses in solar panel inputs to an RV system, AS/NZS 3001.2 specifies (5.5.2.2.3) that fuses are required for "3 or more strings" of panels.
A string is "2 or more panels connected in series". So if, as in my installation of total 4 panels, you had two panels in series forming a string and connected in parallel with a similar string, that would be 2 strings and not require fusing. But if I had alternatively connected all 4 panels in parallel then that would be 4 strings and therefore require a fuse in each string, (4 fuses in total)

The Standard refers to "Protection against circulating currents within the array". As fusing is only required for "3 or more strings" I would assume that with 2 panels in parallel (2 strings) then only 1 panel is available to supply fault current to the other panel so the fault current is limited to the short circuit current rating of 1 panel. However with 3 panels in parallel then a fault in one panel can be supplied with current from the remaining two panels so could be double the current rating of the single faulty panel. Hence fusing is mandated. The fuse should be rated at "no more than 1.5 x the string short-circuit current capacity".
p.s. I would assume that the purpose of this requirement is to protect against a faulty solar panel igniting due to overcurrent from connected strings.
p.p.s. I have used "fuses" in my explanation above for simplicity but the Standard actually refers to "Overcurrent protection devices" so could be satisfied with overcurrent circuit breakers.

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Allan

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Follow Up By: Allan B (Sunshine Coast) - Sunday, Jul 07, 2024 at 11:13

Sunday, Jul 07, 2024 at 11:13
.
I repeatedly see references such as "Fuses are only to protect cables". This notion is incorrect.

The function of a fuse is to limit the fault current in the circuit in which it is connected.
So this is not just the cable but also any faulty device connected to that cable such as fridges, dc-dc chargers and any other appliances. It also limits the delivery current from the source such as a charger or battery to avoid damage to them where they do not contain internal current limitation.

A fault occurring within an appliance could result in such overcurrent as to ignite the appliance or adjacent material. An appliance may contain a fuse within which aims to perform this protection but not all do. Of course, although a fuse may avoid ignition it does not necessarily protect against catastrophic failure of components within the appliance.
These factors should be taken into consideration when designing electrical circuits, not just cable rating.
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Allan

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